Struggling With Depression? Discover the Meaning of Joy and How to Find It
Are you struggling with depression? Jennifer Stirling-Campbell and John know firsthand how to discover the meaning of joy and find it. In this insightful conversation, Jennifer and John explore the powerful distinction between joy and happiness—highlighting that true joy is a spiritual experience that endures through life’s challenges. They dive deep into topics like embracing change, making empowered choices, and the role of faith in building emotional and spiritual resilience.
The discussion also unpacks the healing power of forgiveness, the harmful effects of negativity on mental and physical health, and practical strategies to cultivate lasting joy in everyday life. With heartfelt anecdotes and real-life reflections, Jennifer and John offer listeners tools to reconnect with their inner joy and recognize the transformative power of intentional living.
This Joy-Filled Episode is for you If:
• You’re on a journey to become a new, joy-filled version of yourself, grounded in faith and purpose.
• You’re seeking practical steps toward forgiveness, inner peace, and spiritual renewal.
• You want to understand how positivity affects your physical, mental, and emotional health.
• You’re curious about the difference between lasting joy and temporary happiness.
• You’re looking for guidance on how to experience joy even in times of suffering.
• You’re ready to embrace the power of choice as a path to healing and transformation.
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Full Transcript: Episode 30: Struggling With Depression? Discover the Meaning of Joy and How to Find It
Jennifer Stirling-Campbell (00:00)
think a lot of people punish themselves I deserve to feel miserable in this situation or I should feel sad because my spouse just died or because my friend is hurting. I need to feel or I’m a bad person if I don’t and that’s just not true.
You can allow yourself to have joy. Even when people around you are suffering, can for them, can suffer alongside them, but It doesn’t make you a good person to lengthy periods of time, is what I’m trying to say.
John (00:31)
know, From the Catholic perspective is a gift from appeals more to a spiritual sense as opposed to a physical sense. pleasure and happiness is more of a physical emotion and kind of fleeting,
whereas joy comes from God, affects the soul and is more everlasting.
Jennifer Stirling-Campbell (00:57)
I think everlasting
is the key word.
John (01:00)
Yeah, because.
Jennifer Stirling-Campbell (01:01)
happiness
is what can I do right now to make myself feel better? almost always temporary and based on chemical dopamine hits in the body. happiness. Yeah. Whereas joy comes with that peace, that trust in God that He has the bigger picture. And even through horrifically difficult circumstances, you can
John (01:13)
Right.
Jennifer Stirling-Campbell (01:27)
rely on knowing that he has your best interest and that it’s going to be fine and you don’t have to you allow yourself to have joy or I
a lot of people they’ll punish themselves I deserve to feel miserable in this situation or I should feel sad because my spouse just died or because my friend is hurting. I need to feel or I’m a bad person if I don’t and that’s just not true.
And You can allow yourself to have joy. Even when people around you are suffering, can for them, can suffer alongside them, but you don’t have to stay there. It doesn’t make you a good person to lengthy periods of time, is what I’m trying to say.
John (02:03)
Right. Joy is the ultimate motivator. Joy can push us forward in times of happiness and pleasure and joy can push us forward in times of strife and hardship. Because when you have that joy, you have that inner sense, that inner knowledge that whatever you’re enduring physically,
on a spiritual level that joy is never going to go away. That is the gift of the Holy Spirit. That is a gift of God saying, I have your back. I recently read an article dealing crucifixion And the speaker was saying that
debatable whether Jesus was happy at that moment because of all the physical pain he was enduring. Yeah, would kind of agree no, but was he joyful? And the answer was yes, because in even though what he was enduring physically was
Jennifer Stirling-Campbell (02:57)
Hmm.
I would have to say no.
John (03:15)
the outcome open up the doors of Heaven. The outcome would seal Satan’s defeat. And that experience, that knowledge brought him joy, which is why so many people who have written about have said that he willingly embraced the cross. He lovingly embraced it. Not because of the physical hardship, but because of the
Jennifer Stirling-Campbell (03:24)
Mm-hmm.
John (03:42)
joy that was result from what he did.
Jennifer Stirling-Campbell (03:45)
Mm-hmm. It was
completely worth the sacrifice. And I think that him being human at the time, I imagine he struggled. asked not to have to partake of it, if all possible, take this cup from me. But keeping that eternal perspective of this is going to be worth it. And the joy that is within you that maybe is suppressed at the time because of the pain, lasts through to where, okay, that’s…
John (03:59)
Right.
Jennifer Stirling-Campbell (04:12)
done and over, got through that challenge, and then that triumph. It’s the triumph and the process. So studies have shown that your best chance of having joy is in taking on challenges are beyond you, and making those steps towards a goal or becoming someone new or achieving something like
I mean, That takes quite a bit of training. the training for a marathon fun? I have to say in most cases, nada. No, I’ve never had the desire to do one, but some people do. And some people really love running, but the pain is real. I mean, those last few miles of the marathon, the human body in general starts to break down in real ways. It’s not the physical exertion that is difficult, I’ve heard from those last few miles, it’s that people feel like their legs are going to break.
John (04:45)
Right.
Jennifer Stirling-Campbell (05:06)
impact over and over and over one leg ahead of the other those last three or four miles just to finish. But the joy of I did it. Even if it wasn’t I won the race, it’s I finished or I tried or I learned these things even though the goal that I to get didn’t work out the way I hoped it would. It’s the joy of the journey; of
learning something new. and an Aquarius like me that comes pretty naturally. I’m constantly wanting to learn new things. of the keys of overcoming depression or achieving joy in your life is simply moving in a new direction, changing things up. And that could be learning piano,
on a challenge is beyond your level, like joining a team, and you’re like, but I’ve never played basketball, and you join a basketball team. You learn how to play basketball. It could be anything. Taking on a new job. So many people are miserable in their jobs. Having the courage to quit the old job, take a huge pay cut, and try something new for the experience. You only live once. And that’s not to be completely…
responsibilities, but sometimes you can downsize. And if you’re with a spouse, you can work with them to make things work and have a new experience. So you’re not just floundering your whole life in a job you hate. That’s a really common one. My brother-in-law recently took cut to buy their own business and doing completely different. And I’m so proud of them.
They Theynow own cookiecutter.com. And I can hard they’re working. And it’s not always joyful work, generally more happy and joyful they are the control over their own business the creative things they’re doing to make it better and all these cookie cutters they’re
Money is way down pole for me in terms of priorities. If I can make it work and I can have joy doing it, I’m going to do it. Like I don’t really care about the money as long as I can pay the bills, make it ask God, will you please help me through this? I don’t know how I’m to pay this. I don’t know how I’m to pay my taxes this year. It always works out.
So having that kind of faith helps a lot in making better choices that are not based in money, but based in the experience and asking the Lord, do you want me to learn and what direction do want me to go now? It’s all about learning and growth, this joy thing.
John (07:32)
Exactly. And you have to be willing to challenge yourself at the same time. have to recognize when you are in a rut, when you are stagnant, when you need to make a change. oftentimes God will send you subtle signs and you have to be able to look for them and be ready to, them.
On the same token sometimes people are myself included and God has to really hit you with a major sign.
Jennifer Stirling-Campbell (08:04)
Maybe
you get fired. You’re like, this is horrible and this is the best thing that ever happened to you.
John (08:07)
Well, yeah, that-
Yeah, in my own of the things I used to be was an electrical engineer I worked for a company, traveled all across the United States for eight years at the time it was fine, but after working there for so long
60, 70 hours a week, no holidays off, no weekends off. And I started to burn out…. Finally I got downsized. were, they were bought out and it’s like, well, you can move to California or you could move overseas.
Otherwise you need to look for a new job. So I was like, well, I have no desire to leave. got laid off. I pretty much downsized myself and I was like, all right, this is God’s way of telling me I need to make a change in my life. I spent
Jennifer Stirling-Campbell (09:06)
Sometimes that
requires selling a house and getting a smaller one. and and people act like I can’t I can’t do that have these bills to pay these how then I’m like I’m looking at him going you can get rid of some of these things that are costing you so much money. You can; it’d be an adventure. It’d be so cool.
John (09:16)
Yep.
Yeah, and at the time it’s not the funnest but anyway long story short
I back to school, and that’s where I became a math teacher I started my teaching career where I have been 10 years.
Jennifer Stirling-Campbell (09:34)
And I would venture
to say that that was intuitive for you. You didn’t just jump into the teaching career. You felt that confirmation that, yes, this is the thing. Because I think a lot of people will get excited about things and just jump into them the spirit and end up in even a worse place than they were before. the joy is the most full when tuning into your higher power. Let’s just put it that way.
John (09:50)
⁓ yeah, there…
Yeah, and for me, like…
Jennifer Stirling-Campbell (09:59)
even if it doesn’t make sense
what you’re being told to do.
John (10:03)
Yeah, there was a period of six months between me being laid off and deciding to go back to school for teaching. And during those six months, I tried different things. Nothing else worked out until finally I decided the teaching route. That’s when things started to take shape. And I’m like, all right, I’m going to give this a try. And I was like, well, I’m going to give it five years.
Atthe end of five years, they say most teachers don’t make it past three. Well, I’ll shoot for five. I’ll go for five years. most new teachers quit within the first two or three years. And it’s not necessarily because of teaching. It’s because of all the red tape and all the drama.
Jennifer Stirling-Campbell (10:35)
I didn’t know that.
yeah, no I completely,
that’s why I did not want to be a teacher. The red tape, the bureaucracy, the parents, not having the freedom to actually teach as much. Yeah.
John (10:51)
Yeah.
and to do.
felt more joy working with the students than I ever felt traveling and whatnot. It felt like I was really making a difference and that changed everything. When you actually make a difference.
Jennifer Stirling-Campbell (11:14)
Now here’s some,
Yeah; here’s an interesting study about people in general. Statistically, people would rather have things be chosen for them than have, like they, well, How did they word it? It was they would rather one choice. For example, if the doctor pulled them in and said,
you have this issue with your back, the only option is surgery versus you have a problem with back. We can try this, we can try this and we can try surgery if nothing works. What do you want to do? Like most people would rather have the doctor say worst case scenario, they’d wish for the worst case scenario so that they have no choice. They just have to do what the doctor says. He says the only choice is surgery. Easy, easy choice. Most people would rather not have a choice than be faced with
the burden of making a choice and experience the consequence, good or not, for the choice they made. That accountability where, Oh, this pressure, what if I make the wrong choice? Intuition helps a lot with that. If you can turn it over and just make the choice you feel it. But it’s not always super clear. But it’s true that a lot of people wish away choices
that could be so much better for them because they don’t want to have to make it. Even in terms of depression. For example, they would rather be told, You have depression, it’s chronic, genetic, take this pill for the rest of your life, should work for you. Rather than being told, You’re suffering from depression, would you like to change your diet? Would you like these different things? Would you like therapy? How about energy work?
and, ⁓Ahhh! you takes a lot of work, right? Rather than, just give me a pill and give me no choices. And I think that a lot of people who are struggling with mental illness are stuck in that, I don’t want to make a choice, I’m good. Don’tgive me hope of ever having more joy than I already have, because that would mean I have to make a choice different from the one I’m already in, and then I have to be accountable for that choice of how it goes. Or I have to follow through with this choice that takes more work.
And I think that’s where a lot of people get stuck, is this mentality that’s very real in the human psyche of, just give me the worst case scenario and tell me that there’s no option other than this one. So I don’t have to choose.
John (13:30)
Right? How to word this….
Yeah, people fear making a mistake when in reality the only mistake they make is not making a choice, making the decision because yeah.
Jennifer Stirling-Campbell (13:38)
Mm-hmm.
Yes. Make a mistake. you can, there’s
recovery.
John (13:55)
I tell my students this all the time; they’re so concerned about making mistakes I teach math okay it’s common and I’m like you can learn more through a mistake than you can doing it correctly the first time.
Jennifer Stirling-Campbell (14:12)
Oh yeah,
I don’t forget when I miss something dumb, you know, in a math equation. I remember remembering and going, oh, I’m never going to do that
John (14:20)
And then I’ve also seen students that have struggled and fought to a concept. then When the light bulb finally clicks and they understand and they get the answer right, they are but I could see the joy because, get that sense of pride. And then they’ll even tell other students, I understand.
Pride in the right way. you know, and that’s it.
Jennifer Stirling-Campbell (14:47)
Mm-hmm. I would like to say it’s the right way pride
for me, like that I overcame depression. I know the difference. There are a lot of people in this planet who do not understand what being depressed chronically is like. It’s not even something they can compute. It’s just they can’t. But I can. I know the difference and I feel like my joy now is so much more full. It’s so much more real because I’ve known the darkness;
was my everyday life for a very long time. And not everyone gets that experience. And Was it kind of awful? Yeah, but coming through it on the other end, I’m so I have that oppositional understanding, because gratitude for where I am right now. And whenever I do get in kind of a slump, I know I’m going to get out of it. I’ve done it so many times before. And they don’t last very long because I have the tools to deal with.
darkness.
John (15:40)
Yeah, wisdom of experience. I’ve done that so many times I’ve made a choice and it was the wrong one and I sit back and I just say, ⁓ That didn’t work out the way I thought it would Okay. now I know I’ll make the change and I’ll do it again. and I’ll do it
Jennifer Stirling-Campbell (15:57)
Well, Some people
listening may be like, well, I’m facing some really monster choices right now and results or the consequences are going to be astronomical. experienced some of those too and I wanted to touch on that a little bit with regard to divorce, big time relationships, how it affects the kids. I was newly divorced and
It had been about a year and then my ex-spouse; we along very well post-divorce. He got remarried. And then things changed drastically in ways that shocked me. And I’d heard horror stories from people of just nasty They’re awful. And I not going to be me. We get along so well. absolute reality for me very quickly. was scary.
was being dragged into court and I didn’t want to go. I wanted to work it out. And it was horrifying. And my ex, he’s a dear, he’s a good person, maybe wasn’t in the best space at the time. And I was really struggling with that. I felt betrayed. I was angry. And I found myself
blaming him for all my problems, right? My life would be fine if you weren’t such a blah blah blah and God, he needs to change. Make him change. was Literally my thoughts and my prayer at the time even was, Make him be better. clearly not in his right mind. Make him be better. Make him like he was before. And I got a very clear, very clear reprimand from God. It was
John (17:39)
Yeah
Jennifer Stirling-Campbell (17:40)
Darling,
he is not going to change. Not for you. You have to change. Ouch. Okay. He says, your current state of mind right now, the struggles you’re having, that is your fault.
And that was a big wake-up call. I literally had to pass my heart on to God and say, Okay, well, please fix it because I’m very out of my mind, frustrated, angry. You’re gonna have to change me. I don’t know how gonna work through all these emotions. It was very agonizing. was taken not only to family court, but criminal court. I was accused of doing things I did not do.
had to get mug shots. It was humiliating. I was getting to the point where I was getting very scared and kind of panicky. And I’d never really experienced the kind of anxiety attacks that people describe. I came pretty close though. I was outside my home realized that I was now going to criminal court and was panicking inside and, whoo, ⁓ and what am going to do?
This is horrible. If I mess this up, I could lose my kids. ⁓ I’m a criminal now according to paper. What if I lose? I was just working myself up in a frenzy and then I started beating myself up. Jennifer, you got to stop it. You cannot go like this. You’re going to look crazy. If you look crazy, you’re going to lose. Put yourself together. And I was just beating myself up, talking to myself really meanly,
And then I felt the spirit say, No, no, no, no, no, no, no, honey. This is the first time you’ve ever done anything like this. This was not something I wanted to be doing. I did not want to be going to court, but here I was. I heard these are growing pains. You’re going to get stronger and it’s going to get easier and you’re going to be fine. got you.
This looks scary. It looks like there’s no way out at this point. There is. It’s going to be fine. But you have to be nicer to yourself. You have to forgive yourself and you gotta forgive your ex.
And so I literally took my hand and I started patting myself on the shoulder. And I just took a big breath and said, You’re doing a good job. You’re doing a good job. And whenever I would feel that panic rise up in me, whenever I’d weird text or that paperwork that you get from the court system, it was just like, I would do it again. I’d pat myself on the quite literally and say, You’re doing really good. These are growing pains. You’re doing a good job.
And I Ittook a year preparation. It was basically a full-time job on top of the other jobs that I had, at the time. So I was trying to support myself as a single mom and make things work so I could be home with my they were with me. And I was able to get to a place where I could actually hear the spirit, because when you’re panicking and crazy, it’s really hard to the spirit. I felt that peace and calm that God
was taking care of things; there was a point at which time I said, What more do I need to do? Because I was working really hard, documenting, the right things. And I just felt the Spirit tell me, you’ve done all that you can. The of this have already been decided. You can’t do anything good or bad, wrong or right forward. It’s already, done. And so I let it go.
And I felt that confirmation that it’s going to be fine. It’s not going to be what you want, but things are going to work out. And sure enough, the only thing I knew God was going to grant in that court. And I won’t go into details what that was, but it was really important for my kids receive that one thing that I was asking the judge to grant them. And the rest of it, I it was 50-50 after that, which I’d had the most of the time before.
It’s typical. was not the schedule that I’d hoped for, which I was disappointed. But then, strangely enough, a year later, my ex offered me the schedule that I for in the beginning without me having to do anything. And he just threw it on the table and said, here you go, you want it? And I said, Yes. And it was just a matter of waiting for that to kind of settle. have worked out beautifully.
Not perfectly. honestly have to say that a lot of the ugliness was because I wasn’t handling the stress very well. I was panicking. I was fearful. I was giving into that darkness. I was hating. I was resentful. once I was able to let that go, then even in that situation where things were uncertain, I did not know what was going to happen. My joy was palpable. I felt
hopeful, I felt radiant, I felt powerful, I felt happy. during one of the most difficult and trying periods of my life. not possible to describe what was going horrific. And I know that other people have experienced similar things, but I can’t tell you just it was for me.
have Especially not understanding the legal system but I was still able to come to a place of peace and joy, even in circumstances. And I could do that during that period of time, Iknow I can do it again. Like No matter what happens to me, I have the confidence that I can have joy in any situation and feel
and love and trust moving forward, that things are going to be okay. And I think that people believe that statement you’re trying to comfort someone and you say, Everything’s going to be okay. I feel it in my body. Every time I hear those words, the truth of it, it’s just, yes. Because feel that it’s true. if they don’t feel it in the moment, there’s comfort in those words, it’s going to be okay. If it’s not okay,
it’s not the end. We haven’t reached the end. So the end of maybe a trial. But with that said, joy has not always been my constant companion, but it is with me the majority of the time now. feel that any person can get to this point. Use me as an example. I was depressed for 25 years. I was abandoned by my one husband taken to court by the other.
hard stuff, financial burdens that were at the time; through those. have enough examples of everything’s going to be okay to know that everything’s going to be okay.
John (24:36)
a very powerful experience and I’ll add one from another perspective. couple years ago was having pain. I thought it was gallbladder issues. So I went in they did the ultrasounds and they discovered that I had a cyst on my one kidney.
I’d I’dalready known about it, but it started to grow. After the testing, they discovered that it was cancerous. The way that the tumor was growing, the cyst, it was actually growing on the back of the kidney next to my spine. And it was starting to…
Jennifer Stirling-Campbell (25:15)
Mmm.
John (25:17)
to grow in and it was at the point it was dangerous. They said would have to take the entire kidney because there was no save it. they were worried also because not only was it pushing on nerves, it was also pushing on one of the major blood vessels and there was all kinds of potential complications. And I think one of the things that surprised a lot of people
Jennifer Stirling-Campbell (25:25)
no.
Yeah.
John (25:44)
even the doctor, because the doctor came in, sat down. He’s like, gave me the cancer speech and while he’s doing this, my sister’s there with me and she’s looking extremely concerned. And I’m like, okay. Like literally that was my response. And he’s like, you understand you have cancer and I’m like,
All what do you got to do? this is what’s going to happen, I can’t do anything about it, which means I just have to. endure. I accept it. I’ll go through Went through the whole process. When I.
Jennifer Stirling-Campbell (26:16)
Alright. Acceptance. Yeah.
John (26:24)
told some of the people close to me they found out. It was like everybody was getting worried except for me. My own father almost died from cancer and there’s other members of my family that have died from cancer so here I am member of the family suddenly being diagnosed with kidney cancer and yet I’m sitting there going yeah whatever.
Ithink that kind of unnerved everybody more than the fact of the cancer. God gave me another trial. said, I’m fine with
Jennifer Stirling-Campbell (26:59)
I would not like that one. That’s a lot of choices.
John (27:00)
The day.
I didn’t, mean,
It was, it was a pretty intense situation going through the whole experience. in the back of my mind, I just kept saying, a year from now, it’ll be okay. I just have to get through these next couple months. Then I just have to get through the first six months and I just have to get past the year. Then I just have to get past two years.
That’s what I would tell myself that It’s bad now. Can I do anything about it? No. So worrying is going to do absolutely nothing.
Jennifer Stirling-Campbell (27:41)
And not only that, would say worrying would feed the cancer. Stress is one of the biggest, it’s not helpful to healing from cancer. So honestly, the less stress, the easier it is to heal from anything, but especially that.
John (27:51)
and
It is and I didn’t friends this but the day that I was leaving to go I actually went to church with some of the other parish parishioners that do daily mass with me
And at the end of mass, they pulled me aside and they were like, John, we want to pray over you. So they got the priest in, they all came over and everyone prayed over me. And I felt their prayers. I felt God flow into my body and I just instinctively knew it was okay. It stayed with me. And when I drove,
back home, it was a couple hours drive, about midway all of a sudden I got hit with a rush of pure love and warmth. And it was so extreme that I just started laughing. I laughed from the bottom of my heart and it was like, is this all? Is this all it is? This is nothing compared to
Jennifer Stirling-Campbell (29:04)
people think we’re weird when we laugh when we’re in really bad situations, but I’ve learned to do that. I’m like, wow, this is a really bad day. I’ll start laughing about it.
John (29:04)
God. I know.
Yeah,
I felt joy at that moment. I felt a true sense of joy, peace and love. And I just instinctively knew it will be okay. Things were going to change. I’d have to endure, which I Surgery went well.
was in the hospital a week from complications. So it was harrowing experience. I was out of work for about a month I could go back.
Jennifer Stirling-Campbell (29:43)
That’s not too bad.
I mean, I had a friend who was out of work for over a year fighting her battle. What was really sweet about her experience is that people from her work were donating their vacation sick days to make sure she kept getting paid so she could keep her benefits that was paying for the treatment. And it was a very, very sweet experience to watch just all of the
John (30:04)
Right.
Jennifer Stirling-Campbell (30:10)
sacrifices that were being made on her behalf. People just love her. My best friend Heather. She’s still here.
John (30:16)
That’s
good still there and I’m still here too. The experience changed my life in some ways and there are certain things I used to be able to eat that I can’t really eat because I have bad side effects It’s been a whole new learning experience I accepted it then
I now find a joy in it because it’s an experience I could not have learned any other way than going through it firsthand. I’ve learned what I’ve learned. I’m moving on. And that’s the key. I think that’s the key to overcoming any form of depression or any form of negative emotion. Don’t.
Stop. Move forward. Push through it. When I had… Yes.
Jennifer Stirling-Campbell (31:06)
Which is where the joy comes from it’s in movie It’s in putting
one foot in front of the other and I did that a lot when I was depressed and it didn’t necessarily fix the depression but it still put me in a position to where when I was finally ready to let it go had the foundation behind me and the examples of the times that I’d failed; got back up again. I was much harder on myself back when I was depressed. Failure was
a lot more painful than it is now, but knowing I had done so many things that I didn’t think I could do, I’d lot on my own, and then realizing for the first time that, Wow; I’m not letting God help me much, I’m just trying to do it all myself, which is admirable sort of, but when I finally handed it over…
I was ready to heal. So it’s not necessarily going to fix depression until you allow God to do a lot of that heavy lifting for you. And it’s very real. You just let it go and you believe it’s going to happen. But you can still practice in the meantime. like John said, just don’t stop. Keep moving forward. Keep choosing life.
I think that’s huge right now with a lot of the people not wanting to live anymore. For I didn’t struggle with that so much. I wanted to disappear. wish I’d never existed kind of a thing, like a Wonderful Life story. Could I have just never been born? You know, that kind of thing. But I never wanted to die either. So it was kind of interesting how mine played out, but I know a lot of people do struggle with that. And so just choosing life
every day that you are here for a reason. Taking that life will not make things better, let me tell you. not pretty on the other side when that happens.
John (32:57)
No, and
Also, you want to focus on key things. Number one, try to focus on something positive. matter what it might be. I mean, even if you wake up the miserable day and you hear a bird chirping, it’s like, that’s a pretty nice song. I Don’t be afraid to take little steps and don’t be afraid to say tomorrow will be better or a week from now.
Jennifer Stirling-Campbell (33:12)
Yeah.
Yes, I did that every day.
John (33:22)
or it’s two
months from now, one hour from now, it’s going to be You know better than anybody else, what position you’re in, what you’re fighting, take little bites, one little step at a time. But the key is take the step, move forward. Even if you get knocked back a little bit, take a breath.
refocus and move forward.
Jennifer Stirling-Campbell (33:49)
we all do. There’s a few
techniques that work particularly well for people who are depressed, because thinking positively does not come naturally in any form. It feels like a stretch. It’s just painful almost to try to think positively, because in my case, everything positive felt like a lie, like I was lying to myself. Like, what a pretty bird. I don’t even like that sound. It didn’t seem to matter what I did. It was really hard to be positive, even though it would just
John (34:13)
Yeah.
Jennifer Stirling-Campbell (34:17)
It was so much energy, is what I’m saying. Like, so much energy that I would have to put forward to try to even think of one thing positive. That’s not natural, that’s not normal, but that’s where I was when I was depressed. a couple things that can help you just go through the motions of when you wake up in the morning, you throw your arms up in the air and you say, hooray! Like, just do it. It seems silly, but you literally throw your arms up when you wake up in the morning and go…
Yay! And it’ll send chemicals into your system that you wouldn’t have had if you’d just woken up and going, ugh, I just want to go back to bed. Like, you just, go through the motion. The second thing is to consciously, and you can make a list on your phone or whatever, but go throughout the day and decide that you have to give away 10 Academy Awards before the end of the day. So it could be an Academy Award for the most beautiful smile. Like, you see someone with a lovely smile and you say,
I’m going to give you the Academy Award today for the most beautiful smile. And you just made their day better, and that’s one of your 10. Or you see the sun coming up and you go, wow, that is an Academy Award-winning sunset. I’m going to give you an award for that sun. It could be a bird chirping. It could be a kind act that you witness. I’m going to give an Academy Award for the kindest act of the day. And make an effort, able or you feel like you can, to tell the people who you’re giving the Academy Awards to.
you feel that energy reciprocated in them and that joy as well. just 10 Academy Awards. Even something as silly, I’ve done this before, like a fly that you cannot catch. normally that would really irritate me. Like, ugh, this fly, why won’t it just given that fly the Academy Award for the fastest fly of the week, like that you were incredibly fast. just naturally changes the energy of that situation.
Ten Academy Awards or throw your hands up and shout hooray when you get outta bed; I know it sounds cheesy, but going through these motions starts to change the way that your brain functions along with We’ve talked about oils and the food we eat and all of those things are huge, but it all goes together here. So making a small change like that is pretty easy. You just have to start noticing things. Choose to notice things.
John (36:07)
Yeah, I could-
Right. And oftentimes people forget that we are dual natured creatures. have a physical self and we also have a spiritual self and both need to care of. You know, you can’t take care of one and neglect the other. It doesn’t work that way. actually, I know it might seem hard. might seem counterintuitive, but
When you get into the habit of being positive embracing the moments of joy when they come, you’ll find it’s actually easier be a joyful, happy person than it is to be focused on negativity.
Jennifer Stirling-Campbell (37:18)
⁓ yeah, negativity
takes a lot of effort. kind of like it takes more effort to frown, a lot more muscles than it does to smile. You don’t realize how much effort you’re putting into it until you aren’t putting it into that anymore. It’s so much easier to live a life of understanding that is the hump we have to get you over. Or the hump I had to get over. That understanding of…
John (37:25)
Right.
Right.
Jennifer Stirling-Campbell (37:43)
It could be easier than this. You’re really putting a lot of energy here. But it’s hard. It’s hard. I’m not gonna negate that at all. It’s a difficult place to be. That’s a lot of people’s normal, but.
John (37:47)
thing.
Yeah.
it takes practice and getting back to failure. Understand the go in cycles. You’re going to have highs, you’re going to have lows, you’re going to take some steps forward. You might take a couple steps back. Again, reiterate for like the third, fourth time. Just don’t stop. Don’t give up and focus and keep moving forward. And that’s how you learn.
Jennifer Stirling-Campbell (38:17)
Well, and two, that you can, life can
be good no matter what you’re going through. Like I’m having what I would call a difficult week and someone asks me, doing? And I can genuinely, without lying, say life is very good. Here’s some challenges I’m experiencing this week, but I’m still feeling a lot of gratitude and joy throughout it anyway. It’s just easy. It’s my nature negate the difficulty of certain situations for sure
but it is possible to have joy throughout all of it.
John (38:47)
I actually got to witness this with an individual. When I was in the corporate world, there was a sales person.
was working with them on client accounts And when I first started working with them, immediate supervisor warned me and he says, whenever you’re dealing with her, always envision that she has a knife behind her back and the moment it benefits her, she is going to stab you with it.
Jennifer Stirling-Campbell (39:21)
Mm-hmm.
John (39:21)
and laugh. she was a very vindictive, icy, two-faced, lying was a way of life for her. And she had a very, it was very negative life. And she actually turned out to be one of the best teachers I ever had. Cause she taught me how not to be a human.
Jennifer Stirling-Campbell (39:32)
Yeah. a sad state.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
John (39:45)
she focused on negativity. To her the world was against her everybody was against her she hated everyone the only person she thought about was herself.
Over the years that I worked with her, I saw her go normal walking person. Then she started having health problems. Her knees started giving out, her hips started giving out. She started walking with a cane and she was having all of these strange problems. She was going to the doctor all
Jennifer Stirling-Campbell (40:12)
Hmm.
John (40:23)
and they couldn’t figure out what was wrong with her but for some reason her physical body was self-destructing. By the time she left the company over the course years she aged I kid you not she was only in her 50s and it looked like she was in her 70s over the course of four years her body had
Jennifer Stirling-Campbell (40:30)
yeah.
Yeah.
John (40:50)
deteriorated because All she saw was negativity. And I’m like, I never want that be That cannot be me. I wish could have changed her. I always tried to be positive and
Jennifer Stirling-Campbell (40:57)
Mm-hmm.
John (41:05)
I always tried to point out the good things, but it never came to pass. And eventually she got fired. She eventually made too many people I don’t know whatever happened to her, but that lesson watching her disintegrate before my eyes, it was just like, wow, that’s a powerful message.
Jennifer Stirling-Campbell (41:05)
Thank
Mm-hmm. I sincerely believe
that every pain, every ailment we have, and believe me, I have them too, comes from a low vibrating frequency, emotion, hate, in a lot of cases somewhere. And a lot of people will say, well, I don’t hate anybody and look a little harder. There’s usually something somewhere. It might not even be your hate, something that you’re carrying.
Could be an ancestor, could be a friend. just look a little deeper there. Feelings Buried Alive, Never Die is a really good resource that I use to get ideas of where maybe the pain that I’m experiencing is coming from. I’ve talked to people, they can be a little cynical about that, like, come on, I just stubbed my toe. I can usually trace a pain to something that I’m struggling with. It’s like a physical manifestation of the inward vessel.
John (41:51)
You know that?
Jennifer Stirling-Campbell (42:14)
I don’t necessarily believe in mistakes.
John (42:15)
and
And here’s another thing for people to realize. Joy is contagious. As just like any other emotion, I know we say, you know, joy is a gift from the Holy Spirit, but it’s a gift for everybody. And you have the same opportunity to give joy to others as God has to give joy to you. every emotion is contagious. Everything you say works.
Jennifer Stirling-Campbell (42:23)
Mm-hmm.
And don’t get discouraged if people that you try to give choice
to don’t receive it. It doesn’t mean that the gift wasn’t appreciated by God, even if it wasn’t necessarily received by them at the time, but if time doesn’t matter, they can always pick that up later and receive it at a later time.
John (42:46)
Right.
Yeah. I know I’ve mentioned this before you can feel the effect, how emotions travel performers. If you go to a live concert, the experience is different than watching it on TV. Likewise, when I traveled, watched all these videos on the Grand Canyon. The first time I saw it in person,
Jennifer Stirling-Campbell (43:17)
Hmm.
John (43:27)
it put everything else to shame because experiences are just so much more real when they’re in person.
Jennifer Stirling-Campbell (43:33)
Yeah, there’s an energy there you
can’t tap into from a picture.
John (43:38)
Right and I think that’s one of the things that with so many people addicted to phones their cell phones. They’re facing the cell phones
Jennifer Stirling-Campbell (43:39)
and history and
of joy. Let’s just put it that way. I think they do sap the joy out of life. They’re addictive. They give you dopamine hits. But yeah, get out of the phone and live life. I have had to put severe boundaries on my own device, irritates people sometimes because they can’t always get a hold of me. always really good at callin’ people the phone on the table most of the time when I am home.
John (43:48)
Yeah.
Jennifer Stirling-Campbell (44:09)
at church, I don’t even bring it. I will leave it inside if I go and do the goats in a lot of cases. It’s not a part of my person. And I think for a lot of people, it’s become just an extension of themselves. never leaves them. and I think we need to disconnect in a way and actually make a list. are some boundaries? like, treat the phone like it’s almost like a person, like an abusive relationship.
Here’s some boundaries we’re setting in place so that you don’t continue to abuse me and live by them. And I feel like that has benefited me massively. The only thing I do on social media for the most part is post for the sake of trying to get the word of the podcast out. And I’ve thought, well, that’s not fair. I should support other people. But at the same time, I know that even in myself when I’ve been trying to do social media to get the algorithm to like mine,
I’m lower that more time you spend on social media, the more depressed a person is. That’s just across the board. that even in myself So I just decided, nope, I’m not doing that. I’ll post and then say bye and check if I have comments later; I spend very little time on my phone. I might be listening to music my son is always asking for his songs, my baby.
or maybe listening to a podcast when I drive, but I don’t stare at the thing much. think the less FaceTime you get with the thing, to better.
John (45:35)
a key to overcoming depression is don’t focus on the cell phone historically early on they did a they found that having negative stories causes higher viewership on the news media. So
Jennifer Stirling-Campbell (45:52)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, the the bad news travels fast
good news travels encouraged by this podcast even though it’s not blowing up. It’s like it’s the good news that’s gonna slowly gain traction.
John (46:05)
That’s the other thing, listen to your heart, listen to God, listen in the quiet places. God is not loud. He is quiet. He is subtle it’s in your face. It’s always in the little things. For instance,
one of my new appreciations is the sunrise. When I’m going to work, It up during the process of me driving in.
just finding appreciation in the things around you in the world around you in the quiet spaces and I know sometimes people that are in depression they’re like I don’t want to be in a quiet space because then I start listening to my own thoughts and whatnot well you know what
Jennifer Stirling-Campbell (46:49)
That’s very real, yeah. But music, like positive,
uplifting music, or journaling really good way to get those negative things out on the page and then transform them into something else. So meditation doesn’t always work great for people who are depressed, like that super quiet, but you can start getting yourself to a place where eventually you could. Just more intentional quiet time, I suppose.
John (46:57)
Yes.
Hey.
Yeah, and again, it’s a building process. lot of what you’re hearing from myself and Jennifer is coming from many years of experience.
going through the trenches first hand and I think Jennifer can agree with me when I say there is hope, there is light at the end of the tunnel and one of the greatest things that we get on the other side is joy. realize that it was worth it. The whole experience was worth it.
Jennifer Stirling-Campbell (47:37)
Mm-hmm.
And so much of these things that we were worried about just
don’t matter. We were wasting a lot of time and energy on things that just don’t matter. work themselves out, whether we worry about them or not. And you were saying about the sunset. I know I’ve mentioned this in other podcasts, but just as a reminder, one of the best things you can do for your mental health is to get outside and let the sunlight touch your eyeballs and your skin within 30 minutes. It does wonders. Like this one of
John (47:54)
Yeah.
Jennifer Stirling-Campbell (48:19)
probably the biggest suggestions I could offer to someone who’s just getting started. one thing is huge, along with the oils.
John (48:26)
Yeah, sunlight impacts your health.
Jennifer Stirling-Campbell (48:29)
There’s an infrared that it
changes the chemicals in your body. But you can’t get it from indoor light. It has to be outside, not through a window.
John (48:39)
straight on.
Jennifer Stirling-Campbell (48:39)
Yeah, straight
on. And the sun symbolic of God in a lot of respects. In astrology, it certainly is.
John (48:48)
And at the same time, you don’t want to get sunburned too. I gotta throw that in there, you know?
Jennifer Stirling-Campbell (48:50)
We don’t though. My son is out. Yeah,
yeah, but it doesn’t take very long. Five minutes. My son is outside constantly, like a lot. He’s my, and a half year old. I almost never put sunscreen on. Don’t condemn me yet. Okay, like I have some reasons I don’t do of which is a lot of times sunscreen causes other issues, but if you’re outside regularly, you actually develop a tolerance for the sunlight.
and you are better able to absorb vitamin D without getting burned. there’s some intelligent thinking. I wasn’t just being irresponsible when I’m like, go, yes, play for five hours out in the sun. He can handle
John (49:30)
Yeah, of course there are some people that have problems like my one friend. ⁓ she’s so irish. I mean, she’s so white She goes outside 10 minutes. She comes in as a lobster, Yeah, exactly that’s a little increments here
Jennifer Stirling-Campbell (49:42)
take a very slow and steady increments. One minute, two minutes for her. Yeah,
so you know, I wanted talk a little bit of just, we’ll wrap it up here pretty soon, but about a concept that I learned in college where the creative jobs, again, creating, being a creator. And when I say that,
with joy in mind, it’s moving forward, making choices, doing things new, learning the piano, like we talked about, right? That’s kind of the apex of joy. And that’s no different for jobs, for careers. The careers that are allowed the most freedom to create and do kind of your own thing boundaries, of course, don’t have someone hovering over you all the time, micromanaging every aspect of your work
are the happiest jobs, the people who are very happy in their work. And when I learned this from a study that was done and shared to us by my orchestra instructor, and he was telling us that this huge list of jobs, I want to say maybe 100 different careers were listed from happiest, and this was based on research, to least happy most discontent. And I think orchestra musicians were like second from the bottom.
and I was going, Man, do I actually want to go through with trying to be an orchestra musician? If that’s the case, maybe I don’t want to do this. And I started thinking about it. Why would that be? And if you think about it, if you if you’ve never played an orchestra, I will tell you. The music you play has been written by someone else. You read the notes, you play them the way that the conductor and the writer of the music tells you to. There’s notations and accents and all kinds of things that tell you how to play it.
John (51:02)
He
Jennifer Stirling-Campbell (51:27)
and then the conductor will say, I don’t want you to it like this, I want you to play it like this, I want you play it short, long, whatever. And then whenever you make a mistake, you get looks from
Jennifer Stirling-Campbell (51:38)
Can you hear me?
So we lost me for a while, my computer died, and the charger I thought I had, I didn’t. So, my bad.
John (51:48)
Yeah,
I said I thought we had 20 minutes more. We still had 20 minutes.
Jennifer Stirling-Campbell (51:51)
I know!
So we are back, but I was talking about the career thing, obviously, but I think I basically hit on what I wanted to hit on there. But it is a lot less comfy, but much more rewarding on God He wants us to create. It doesn’t mean never be an orchestra musician, but in my case, I made the choice to be part of a volunteer organization.
It’s very good. We’re having some performances coming up, Millennial Choirs and Orchestras, but it’s not quite as much pressure as a regular orchestra. Not as many egos in the room, I suppose. And while the quality is very high, we allow each other to make mistakes without dirty looks. So that’s one thing. the music we play is all Christ-centered for the most part. good. And the choir,
John (52:34)
That’s good.
Jennifer Stirling-Campbell (52:38)
of the most spiritual experiences I’ve ever had have been in that environment with that group. that was the goal of the people who put it together was to share the light of Christ different groups in different states. There’s one in Utah, Texas, Idaho, Arizona. I think there’s two in California, two in Texas, and Missouri now.
What’s interesting too is that one of the highest ranking careers that had the most joy was jazz is interesting because they aren’t so much told what to do or how to have all this creative freedom. They can improvise. different. Same instrument, different application. energy is different.
And in your case, I would say you teach math, which is very structured, but the way you teach math, you have the freedom to do that and into your own classroom.
John (53:19)
I high-
Yeah, that-
one of the big advantages of where I work I moved That was one of the things that they allowed me to do was teach the how I want to I became more project-based learning.
Jennifer Stirling-Campbell (53:38)
Mm-hmm.
John (53:42)
And that, surprisingly, that actually throws some students off because they’re so used to our structured, here’s the information curriculum, and then a teacher come in and says, all right, you’re going to have to think for yourselves. What, what, what do you mean? No, we don’t like these projects. They’re too difficult. I’m like, well, yeah, you’re thinking for yourself.
Jennifer Stirling-Campbell (53:48)
or curriculum. Yeah.
What?
I am of the firm belief that
the less curriculum, the more we can learn. And that’s a can. I mean, it can be totally just dismissed of, let’s just not learn at all. But I think my goal as a homeschooling mom is to follow the interests of my child and lots and lots of reading and lots and lots of studying history and celebrating
all of the history, even the good, the bad, and the ugly, good things that you can take from all of it. Sadly lot of the focus on our history has been negative, which is depressing. Let’s not add to the depressing. It can be real that these people made mistakes and still celebrate the good that they offered to this world, even if that good was a really hard learning experience of what not to do. But I don’t think
coming down on all of these imperfect men and women is beneficial to us. It makes us harder on ourselves. Like if you’re hating on these historical figures that did the best they could, then you can’t help but do the same for you.
John (55:05)
When you learn from the past, you have to take the whole person because as you know, we all have the negative experiences, but it’s experiences as well as the positive ones are recreate us. We are a mix. The key though is
Jennifer Stirling-Campbell (55:10)
Mm-hmm.
and if the wrong people told my
story, they could make me look like an ogre, like a horrible person or, you know, the opposite. They could make me look like a saint. But if you take all of it and just look at it in the perspective, the best you can, then you see that, ⁓ whole person, good, bad, ugly, learned a lot.
John (55:45)
It’s the good, the bad, the ugly. I love that show that Western. When you get to Heaven, there thieves, blasphemers, murderers, adulterers.
Heaven is filled with sinners. Everyone that gets in
Jennifer Stirling-Campbell (56:06)
has made
significant mistakes. For sure.
And the difference is turn
to God and Christ let him purify them and make them into something new and better so that you don’t want the sins you’re worthy of Heaven because you want nothing to do with that previous lifestyle, right? But to be condemned forever, like codified, how awful! Like the way that people talk about Columbus or even Martin Luther King, it pains me. I’m like, these were human beings.
John (56:23)
Exactly.
Jennifer Stirling-Campbell (56:35)
who did wonderful things and also made mistakes. I’ve hurt people on a smaller level, but they were brave enough to do the big things that no one else was willing to do. And of course, that’s going to reap bigger consequences for good or for ill. And I find them very brave for trying.
John (56:56)
if you want to talk about someone who’s almost a paradox, I’ll point out the big one. King David of the Old Testament. He, I mean, he’s great. He was, He made the Psalms. He was very, religious to God, but yeah, he made some big mistakes too and paid for them.
Jennifer Stirling-Campbell (57:02)
yeah. Yeah. I refer to him a lot, but boy.
Yeah, pretty significant ones.
Yeah.
John (57:19)
I mean, some of his mistakes affected the entire country. and
Jennifer Stirling-Campbell (57:21)
Yeah. Ended at least one
life on kind of purpose, adultery, it’s all there. So you can see that men can fall, but great men can also fall and do better and turn to God again.
John (57:37)
That’s the other thing that also goes hand in hand with joy, forgive yourself. You have to forgive everybody else, which is right. Doesn’t mean you have to forget, you know, but you do have to forgive. Yeah. Let it go.
Jennifer Stirling-Campbell (57:50)
No. For your sake, let it go. feel like if you’re not willing to forgive, you wrap up their
karma into yours. You really want the karma that they’ve signed up for for doing horrible things to you? Like, let them suffer on their own. You don’t have to suffer anymore. That’s not your job to make them pain or to hold them hostage.
John (58:04)
it right.
if you make the wrong decision, forgive yourself, learn from it, move forward. And think of it that it’s not going to destroy you. I don’t care even how bad the decision is, in all honesty, if you make a wrong decision, it will not destroy you unless you let it.
Jennifer Stirling-Campbell (58:14)
Moving forward.
Yes.
Now don’t listen to the liar who too late, you’ve messed up too much, you’re a lost cause, no matter what it is. I mean, I can think of very deep dark sins that I personally don’t know anyone who’s recovered from, but I’m sure there are those who have. I just don’t know them.
John (58:31)
But if you make… make
Jesus forgives everything. I mean I’m really God is an awesome God if you ever listen to that song. That’s a really awesome. There we go. Say awesome again. I’m into it
Jennifer Stirling-Campbell (58:55)
Awesome!
John (58:57)
is no sin, no darkness that can not be overcome by God. And the moment you realize that the moment you trust Him that’s the key thing. You have to let go and trust Him and understand that He will lead you through the experience no matter what it is.
and it might be instantaneous, it might take an entire lifetime. I mean, that’s been a cause for some saints. It took an entire lifetime. There was one saint, I forget his name, but he was like in his fifties or sixties before he had the revelation and changed his life. So for all those years,
Jennifer Stirling-Campbell (59:44)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
John (59:49)
he had been doing wrong, making mistakes until finally, God had enough. like, will you, wake up already? And he’s like, ⁓ crap. I, I’ve really screwed up. that’s the story of humanity. That’s our Everyone needs to understand that you are part of that history.
Jennifer Stirling-Campbell (59:54)
You knucklehead.
Hmm.
John (1:00:06)
Everyone has their own book. I know earlier we were talking about, your father and how he used to write books. We all write our book. Jesus even said, you are in the book of life. Every story is unique. Every story is its own chapter in the overall book known as humanity.
Jennifer Stirling-Campbell (1:00:19)
Mm-hmm.
Make it a good story.
Don’t play it so safe that you don’t do the things that you’d done or tried. Make it a good story. These good stories are full of little bumps along the way or learn from this, learn from that, and that’s not go jump in and do a bunch of horrible things. We’re talking try, try to do right, and then mess up along the way. Those are the best stories.
John (1:00:34)
Yeah!
Right.
remember, God loves the underdog. Even in my own life, I’ve noticed as I’ve become more spiritual God doesn’t directly intervene
Jennifer Stirling-Campbell (1:01:01)
Mm-hmm.
John (1:01:10)
as much as he used to with me. And one time I was questioning Him about that. And he’s like, well, you just don’t need that anymore. It’s like I came in, I did what I needed to do, but now I can step back and I can do other things. So,
Jennifer Stirling-Campbell (1:01:24)
Let you, well if he’s constantly
like holding you up like a toddler, yep, next step. you’re so cute, like try to walk again. and There’s a point where you let the toddler, you let the toddler go and start running and you’re not trying to baby step them all the way anymore because if you did, it would hold them back. Big time, big time. That’s not good.
John (1:01:32)
You’ll never learn
Right.
and
And that’s the way God is. He will come in and he will baby step you as much as you need it as much as you ask it and but at some point yeah he’s going to let go and let you run let you because that’s part of the experience
Jennifer Stirling-Campbell (1:01:57)
or figure things out. Like again,
the challenging lessons are the ones you remember. And I feel like sometimes I’m like, ⁓ just tell me what to do or make this easy. And I feel like He’s saying, Nope. You know what to do. come on, Jen. don’t need to be babied forever, but sometimes I think we want to. Like, just let me stay a toddler forever. And no, you’re a teenager now.
John (1:02:09)
Yeah?
That’s yeah Yeah, that’s the that’s the easy way. Yeah, it is a lot easier if you let someone else guide you
Jennifer Stirling-Campbell (1:02:17)
Here’s more responsibility.
Yeah, change my diapers!
John (1:02:28)
but then the story becomes less interesting.
Jennifer Stirling-Campbell (1:02:30)
Very much less interesting. Well, I want with first a scripture, the kind of theme scripture for this whole podcast. And I eventually would like to make shirts with it. If people want shirts, let me know. 2 Corinthians 5:17, and I’ll this one a lot, but,
and that transformation. Old things are passed away. Behold, all things are become new. All things are become new. So you can literally become an entirely new person full of joy. Light is life is joy is God is feel like they’re very much synonymous. And my last quote is by Gandalf. I can’t remember if this is Gandalf the Grey or Gandalf the White, you know, otherwise known as J.R.R. Tolkein.
first Frodo says to Gandalf the wizard, I wish it need not have happened in my time. Gandalf then replies, So do I. And so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.
I love that quote. And if you want to overcome depression, move forward in your life, no, you don’t get to choose when you were born exactly. You don’t get the circumstances of life, the world we live in. It can look pretty messy. It can look rather dark. What you do with it makes more difference than you know. Ripple effects are real. Karma is real. Christ, his atonement. It’s real.
John (1:03:41)
Very, very true. Yes.
Jennifer Stirling-Campbell (1:04:08)
want to emphasize the worth of you and the choices you make, the brave choices you make in getting out of your comfort zone that can move you to more of a place of joy by being creative, learning something new, can lead you to an entirely new world that you didn’t know existed.
John (1:04:26)
it’s definitely worth going there because when you find it changes everything.
Jennifer Stirling-Campbell (1:04:28)
Yeah.
It changes
everything. in the case of Lord of the Rings, I mean, was pretty ugly, dirty. You talked about that woman who looked really old and she was 50. I thought of the ogres or everything that’s evil kind of gets that nasty or smiegel, turned into golem. real. I mean, you can look at pictures of me when I was depressed. I looked like a different person. I had a different demeanor. I had a different body. I didn’t hold myself the way I do now.
John (1:04:40)
Yes.
No.
Jennifer Stirling-Campbell (1:04:59)
And so healing is real, it’s powerful, it’s for you, and you can have joy in your life. Is there anything else you want to say, John, before we part ways for the week?
John (1:05:12)
Now I think that about covers it.
Jennifer Stirling-Campbell (1:05:13)
thank you for listening. And if you feel inclined, please leave us star review on rate this podcast.com forward slash overcome depression that would really help us out a lot. I am Jennifer.
John (1:05:24)
I am John.
Jennifer Stirling-Campbell (1:05:25)
and we will see you next time.
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